Craps At Indian Casinos
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Agua Caliente Resort Casino Spa Rancho Mirage 32-250 Bob Hope Drive Rancho Mirage, CA 92270 888.999.1995. Because the law that the voters passed that the Indian Gaming Compacts are based on specifically forbade dice games and roulette. The tribes were allowed to operate electronic gaming machines, off-track horse betting, and card games. The 'card craps' and roulette wheels using cards are skirting around the law and so far the state is buying it. With dice, people can go nasty runs and casinos can lose a little big. Indian casinos are the biggest rip offs, even their slot machines require one extra credit. Like wheel of fortune it is 2 credits in vegas and at indian casino's it 3. All of the Indian casinos are open 24 hours (except Big Cypress) and all offer bingo except for both Seminole Hard Rock Casinos and the Seminole Casino Coconut Creek. The minimum gambling age is 18 at all Indian casinos for bingo or poker and 21 for electronic gaming machines. Pari-mutuel casinos There are eight pari-mutuel casinos in Florida.
Why does a casino put 5 dice on the craps table, mix them all up, and then make the shooter grab only 2?
For the same reason they shuffle cards in plain sight and your opponent in a duel offers you a choice of two identical weapons.
Nice casinos, but at that time, no live craps games. I think they had a version of craps, bubble craps or such. I didn't play it, but according to one of the posters here from Arizona, I probably should have. Both casinos are a short drive from Peoria I think.
Five identical dice, with their serial numbers recorded by the Boxman, are assigned to a table. No one seriously thinks the dice are anything but identical. Shooter gets to choose so the participants all see the choice and know it done openly. Doesn't matter which two are chosen. You can imagine some nicks and scratches but that is either your irrational hope or your irrational fear. The casino just wants five dice at the table. They examine them during play and whenever there is a Too Tall To Call incident as the dice bounce off the table. Anytime a die is returned to a table it will be examined and don't bother to try to hurry the Box from doing it. He will examine the die and he will make sure its serial number is on the list.
Even with a microscope you couldn't analyze a die and predict it would favor some result. The next expert with a microscope would probably make an opposite prediction anyway. If you don't like the die you can change them during the shooting but of course never retroactively. You don't have to give a reason for requesting one or two new dice and you don't have to give a reason for declining to shoot the dice any longer if you choose to pass the dice half way through your roll.
The casino provides five dice so that there will be no arguments that might result if only two dice were available. And that five available actually continues during the shooting.
Bad dice? Here is how i beat the casino with the questionable dice at their own game .
A few months back i was playing in a casino where everyone at table was losing...I mean nobody coud make a point . At the table were all random shooters and right side bettors.
After the last shooter 7'd out, i asked for the same dice and tipped the dealer. I set the dice for a box number and put a bet on the Don't Pass. Then , i proceeded to roll the dice randomly (not setting) and within 2-4 rolls the seven would show as expected.
I tipped the dealer and asked for the same dice again....this time however, i called a bunch of my friends over and told them what was going on the with biased dice, and told them to join the fun and everyone bet the don't.
I once again bet don't pass, then randomly rolled the dice and within a few rolls 7 out...everyone at the table won....The next shooter asked for the same dice and did exactly what i did...We won 20 decisions in a row...within a few rolls 7 out....The casino was forced to be on the do side and once we found the bias, there was no way the casino could beat us...we knew the 7 would roll within a few rolls.
Next time you find bad dice...see how the casino likes it being on the do side....and beat them at their own game by playing the don't side.
Wow, good job. It's amazing how that pro-7 bias doesn't effect the come-out roll. Magic!!!
Also, were all your 7-outs the same combinations? Like, were the all 6-1, or all 5-2, or all 4-3? Because if not that would really be some amazing bias! The 2nd die sees the the first die is a 3, and then it is more likely to come out 4. But if it sees that it's 5, then it's more likely to come up 2. AMAZING!!
Why does a casino put 5 dice on the craps table, mix them all up, and then make the shooter grab only 2?
Many shooters ask for the same die when it goes off the table, so speeding up the game is negligible. In fact, I would argue that making every shooter pick 2 of the 5 dice is actually slower, since some people take a long time to decide.
In addition, have you ever tried to get the same 2 dice that the previous shooter was throwing? They won't let you. In fact, they will usually mix them even more, and I have had boxmen put their hands over the whole pile of dice while they mixed them. Why?
My opinion is the casinos do fear that a pair of dice may have a bias to them, albeit unintentional. By forcing you to pick 2 of 5 dice, the casino is ensuring randomness, even if the dice are not completely unbiased.
If every dice was unbalanced in the same way, it would become obvious to the players, and could be exploited with the correct betting play.
However, what if each die in the 5 dice set was unbalanced to different numbers? It would be impossible, as a player, to take advantage of this type of unbalance. Every 2 dice combination would have a skew towards a different number, and by the time you figured it out, a 7 out would have occurred and a 'new' pair of dice have been selected for the next roll.
The question I have for the math experts (most of whom are probably not looking at this thread) follows;
This is purely a mental exercise. I don't want to discuss why a casino would even entertain cheating. I just want to understand, from a mathematical perspective, would it be possible to gain an edge.
Are there any combinations of dice weighting that would end up in the casino's favor. For instance, assume the shooter grabbed two dice that both had an unbalance in favor of the 6. The DP players push on the Come Outs, the PL players lose, so overall the casino is favored. Of course, if that was the known case, the player would just play the 12, which would hurt the casino, even with the high HE of that bet.
However, the player would have to be able to recognize that the 6s were showing up more than reasonable, and start betting the 12, BEFORE the 7 out initiates a new dice combination. Until that recognition occurred, wouldn't the casino have a slight advantage with that particular dice combination?
Given we have 5 dice to choose from (A,B,C,D,E) how many different pair combinations are possible? I think I am correct with 10.
AB, AC, AD, AE, BC, BD, BE, CD, CE, DE
Assume the 'A' is biased toward the 6, and the 'B' is biased toward the 1.
When a shooter grabbed this combination, there is going to be a higher number of 7s thrown. The PL players will win more Come Out rolls, but are probably not going to win the point. The DP players are going to lose on the Come Outs, but are likely to win their Don't Point. However, I would think this combination of dice would still be in the casino favor, since there are generally way more PL players than DP players, and the PL odds bets will all lose. Again, once the players become aware of this bias, they would all switch to the DP, but given a new combination of dice is put in play after the 7 out, there would not be a chance to capitalize from this bias.
So, is there a bias that could be applied to each die in a 5 dice set, in a way that would benefit the casino?
Bravo RaleighCraps - awesome post! You will not be able to get very realistic reaction from Wizard's message board with a very good post like this on Craps as even the Wizard has admitted that Dice Influencers and enthusiasts are not welcome here. Most Craps posters found on this message board are theorists only and have no real world experience to speak of including the Wizard. RaleighCraps, I know you and you play more Craps in 1 month on a live casino craps table than 90% of Wizard's Craps posters cumulatively do in a year.
Why does a casino put 5 dice on the craps table, mix them all up, and then make the shooter grab only 2?
Many shooters ask for the same die when it goes off the table, so speeding up the game is negligible. In fact, I would argue that making every shooter pick 2 of the 5 dice is actually slower, since some people take a long time to decide.
In addition, have you ever tried to get the same 2 dice that the previous shooter was throwing? They won't let you. In fact, they will usually mix them even more, and I have had boxmen put their hands over the whole pile of dice while they mixed them. Why?
My opinion is the casinos do fear that a pair of dice may have a bias to them, albeit unintentional. By forcing you to pick 2 of 5 dice, the casino is ensuring randomness, even if the dice are not completely unbiased.
If every dice was unbalanced in the same way, it would become obvious to the players, and could be exploited with the correct betting play.
However, what if each die in the 5 dice set was unbalanced to different numbers? It would be impossible, as a player, to take advantage of this type of unbalance. Every 2 dice combination would have a skew towards a different number, and by the time you figured it out, a 7 out would have occurred and a 'new' pair of dice have been selected for the next roll.
The question I have for the math experts (most of whom are probably not looking at this thread) follows;
This is purely a mental exercise. I don't want to discuss why a casino would even entertain cheating. I just want to understand, from a mathematical perspective, would it be possible to gain an edge.
Are there any combinations of dice weighting that would end up in the casino's favor. For instance, assume the shooter grabbed two dice that both had an unbalance in favor of the 6. The DP players push on the Come Outs, the PL players lose, so overall the casino is favored. Of course, if that was the known case, the player would just play the 12, which would hurt the casino, even with the high HE of that bet.
However, the player would have to be able to recognize that the 6s were showing up more than reasonable, and start betting the 12, BEFORE the 7 out initiates a new dice combination. Until that recognition occurred, wouldn't the casino have a slight advantage with that particular dice combination?
Given we have 5 dice to choose from (A,B,C,D,E) how many different pair combinations are possible? I think I am correct with 10.
AB, AC, AD, AE, BC, BD, BE, CD, CE, DE
Assume the 'A' is biased toward the 6, and the 'B' is biased toward the 1.
When a shooter grabbed this combination, there is going to be a higher number of 7s thrown. The PL players will win more Come Out rolls, but are probably not going to win the point. The DP players are going to lose on the Come Outs, but are likely to win their Don't Point. However, I would think this combination of dice would still be in the casino favor, since there are generally way more PL players than DP players, and the PL odds bets will all lose. Again, once the players become aware of this bias, they would all switch to the DP, but given a new combination of dice is put in play after the 7 out, there would not be a chance to capitalize from this bias.
So, is there a bias that could be applied to each die in a 5 dice set, in a way that would benefit the casino?
Bravo RaleighCraps - awesome post! You will not be able to get very realistic reaction from Wizard's message board with a very good post like this on Craps as even the Wizard has admitted that Dice Influencers and enthusiasts are not welcome here. Most Craps posters found on this message board are theorists only and have no real world experience to speak of including the Wizard.
RaleighCraps, I know you and you play more Craps in 1 month on a live casino craps table than 90% of Wizard's Craps posters cumulatively do in a year.
Bohermian, just as all of your posts on Craps, it's all speculation. You live in a fantasy world, whereas most regulars to this forum live in a land of statistical proof and concrete evidence. Dice influencers/controllers are not welcome here because there is no such thing and they just end up making themselves look stupid and causing problems with the regulars that have more intelligence than to believe them. Not one person in the history of the world has ever proven they can influence/control the dice and beat the odds on legal throws.
Why is it that everything else that can be beaten in a casino, BJ when counting, other games when hole carding, promotions, 100+% video poker, loss rebates, etc, etc can all be proven, but what you say does happen, can't?
Your real world experience is flawed. If it's not, put your money where your mouth is? There are dozens of people here that will take you up on any wager that says you can control the dice any better than anyone throwing out of a cup.
ZCore13
Bravo RaleighCraps - awesome post! You will not be able to get very realistic reaction from Wizard's message board with a very good post like this on Craps as even the Wizard has admitted that Dice Influencers and enthusiasts are not welcome here. Most Craps posters found on this message board are theorists only and have no real world experience to speak of including the Wizard.
RaleighCraps, I know you and you play more Craps in 1 month on a live casino craps table than 90% of Wizard's Craps posters cumulatively do in a year.
I am asking the question here precisely because this is where the math experts and theorists reside. I want, nay I need, the theorists to tell me if my hypothesis could in fact, create a larger house edge for the casino, and if so, how much higher could the house edge be. I am trying to reason through this, but it is quite a bit above my skill set. I should learn how to mess with the dice outcome percentages in WinCraps, and just do it all in sims.
I am not saying any casino is, or would, do this. But, if there is an extreme advantage to be found, then as a player I would have something to look for. However, I suspect that even if I am correct, the increased house edge would be <2% which would not be noticeable beyond whatever normal variance is occurring. It certainly is not going to make it possible to win consistently at this game.
Beyond that, there are way more reasons why the casino would not care to do this.
1. They already have the edge. The math proves they will be winners in the long run. There is no need to cheat.
2. I assume they would stand to lose their license in most every jurisdiction if they were caught. Why risk losing your business, to get an edge on a game you are already going to win on? Of course this assumes gaming regulations call out that the dice must be balanced and fair. If that is not in the gaming regs, then the casino would not have to fear this point.
But what if a casino was not aware of it?
Do we know for a fact that every casino verifies every die is 100% balanced before it gets to the table? Or does a casino rely on the manufacturer to be providing 100% balanced dice, and never check, or just randomly check a die?
And how accurate is the casino's check? What would the margin of error be?
I would like to play a craps game sometime with only 1 pair of dice. Every shooter gets the same pair. I am quite certain the outcome would not be any different, but it would still be fun to try and find a bias to try and exploit.
A floor supervisor , who hadn't been paying attention to the craps table walked up and asked one of the dealers, 'What's going on here' He responded with well, the shooter is having a hot roll....The supervisor yelled in a stern voice...'Change those dice!!!'
Now, Why would he want the dice changed, if they are all the same?
Howard rock n roller
I'm one of the top dice influencers in the country
In fairness, you are tied for first place
Ok, I'll jump back into this interesting discussion. A few months ago i was in a casino early in the morning. I was the only one at the craps table and in the middle of long hand... (46 rolls without a 7) Now, many of you might know me and I'm one of the top dice influencers in the country.
A floor supervisor , who hadn't been paying attention to the craps table walked up and asked one of the dealers, 'What's going on here' He responded with well, the shooter is having a hot roll....The supervisor yelled in a stern voice...'Change those dice!!!'
Now, Why would he want the dice changed, if they are all the same?
Howard rock n roller
He would do that most likely for one legitimate reason and one not so legitimate reason. The legitimate reason is that all the dice are exactly the same, except if you as the shooter, were able to do something to them or switch them out. He hasn't been watching, so he has no idea. By putting new dice in he can examine those dice if he chooses to and put others in that have not had the opportunity to be messed with
The second reason would just be stupid superstition. If he did not look at the dice that came off the table during your run, he's just stupid. One for not looking at them and two for thinking switching dice makes any difference. Same as blackjack players in a 6 deck shoe that think someone who 'takes a dealer' bust card ruins the rest of the shoe for everyone.
Congrats by the way on being able to control the dice equally as well as everyone else and being tied for best controller.
ZCore13
Why No Craps At Indian Casinos
First scenario is that 6-6 is the bar value.
(1) PASS .9 ---- 1.1 DONT : if dice is showing less 1s (0 to .9) then PASS, if more than normal (1.1 upwards) then DONT.
(2) PASS .7 ---- 1.3 DONT
(3) --------------- 1.3 PASS
(4) --------------- 1.3 PASS
(5) DONT .8 ---- 1.2 PASS
(6) DONT .7 ------->
This shows:
(a) If you fiddle 1s 2s or 5s too far then there is an edge (e.g. too many 1s means bet DONT). Of course biassing the 2 probably also means biassing the 5 in the opposite direction, so the effects come in earlier.
(b) If you fiddle less 3s or 4s, then the DONT HE becomes less, but the house still has an edge.
(c) If you fiddle more 6s, then the HE for both sides increase significantly.
Second scenario is that 1-1 is the bar value.
(1) PASS .9 ---- 1.2 DONT
(2 thru 5) as above
(6) --------------- 1.6 DONT
This reduces the sixes fiddle, having no sixes at all still leaves the HE on DONT less than 2%.
I'm guessing if you look at how often 1s and 2s come in, you might detect a bias and hence back PASS with less than normal and DONT with more.
In fact if less 1s are coming in, where the PASS turns (.8962) you were better off placing the 8 (7/6 at 100.76%). Similarly less 2s, PASS turns at .714 where place 10 (at UK odds of 1.9) turns at .871.
With a 1-1 bar table, the defence against the sixes fiddle, is having just .92 makes the place bet on the 6 100.2%.
So in summary go for a table where the bar value is 1-1 and if there was a significant bias then there is a bet you can profit from. Thus it is is the casino's interest to make sure there isn't any bias.
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